Topic: Change, yes he can.

[Centurion73]

Imagine this happening, is this change?

Obama Administration quietly expands Bush's legal defense of wiretapping program
John Byrne
Published: Tuesday April 7, 2009

In a stunning defense of President George W. Bush's warrantless wiretapping program, President Barack Obama has broadened the government's legal argument for immunizing his Administration and government agencies from lawsuits surrounding the National Security Agency's eavesdropping efforts.

In fact, a close read of a government filing last Friday reveals that the Obama Administration has gone beyond any previous legal claims put forth by former President Bush.

The government's legal filing can be read here (PDF).
www.eff.org/files/filenode/jewel/jewelmtdobama.pdf

What does it matter to us at all, he fiddles while the USA burns, sorry I even posted because I am sure it will probably start a shit storm.


   
   

[Frys Girl]

They're going to be hearing lots of phone sex. Apparently people are doing that as it is cheaper - no need to go to bars and clubs and spend Cas$$$$$$. Lol.

While I'm here, I'd like to ask you all to buy shade grown coffee. It doesn't kill birds.

[Centurion73]

www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/04/07/bill-lets-obama-turn-off-the-internet

"Two bills introduced giving the President the power to deem a private network part of the nation?s critical infrastructure and shut it down for cybersecurity reasons also gives the Commerce Secretary the power to access network data outside of oversight."

"About a month after Election Day, the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) issued a report called Securing Cyberspace for the 44th President."

[bobcollum]

he fiddles while the USA burns

 

Wow, the guy before him must've really annoyed you, eh? I think he was already on vacation...but then, they were simpler times, weren't they? Little to no demand for any type of result as there were few problems to solve on the surface. Ahh, the memories.

[EvB]

Wow, the guy before him must've really annoyed you, eh? I think he was already on vacation...but then, they were simpler times, weren't they? Little to no demand for any type of result as there were few problems to solve on the surface. Ahh, the memories.

I VOTED for the man and I'm getting nervous.  Change seems to be SSDD x N

[bobcollum]

I VOTED for the man and I'm getting nervous.

I think the majority, maybe not you in particular, expected way more than anyone should ever expect from someone with a (D) or (R) after their name. I didn't vote for him, but I think he is sincere in what he would like to accomplish, though he will never get to do all of things he wants, because its just impossible.

Imo this country has been going down the shitter for some time now, and to throw it all on Obama, to hold him primarily responsible for digging us out of this hole will lead to nothing but dissapointment. [ideal]I think the only change that will solve anything is a change in the citizen's perspectives...for us to realize that the system needs some tweaking, and that it is our responsibility to take control,[/ideal] but I really doubt it'll ever happen in this day and age. Everyone is too busy trying to keep their stuff.

[Centurion73]

I think the majority, maybe not you in particular, expected way more than anyone should ever expect from someone with a (D) or (R) after their name. I didn't vote for him, but I think he is sincere in what he would like to accomplish, though he will never get to do all of things he wants, because its just impossible.

Imo this country has been going down the shitter for some time now, and to throw it all on Obama, to hold him primarily responsible for digging us out of this hole will lead to nothing but dissapointment. [ideal]I think the only change that will solve anything is a change in the citizen's perspectives...

True statements and I am not putting blame on him at all what I am highlighting is that he is same as the old guy.  We have been going down the shitter for some time but just because Obama states "I think it is the best course of action" all the kool aid drinkers still lap it up. One term president no matter what happens so I do not expect much out of him or from him as he has all ready spent more money than all the other Presidents  combined and it is not even his 100 days yet. Still signing secret order like Bush, stopping investigations into the actions of Bush and Cheney,  he said he would not hire any lobbyiest what does he do, he CHANGES the rules less than 3 days later and does so.

"If you're sick of all the gushing and fawning supposedly impartial American journalists are disgracefully including in reports about the President and First Lady's trip to the G20 summit, a column by the British Daily Mail's Quentin Letts is an absolute must-read.
As a tease:

    Allegedly the most charismatic politician in the world, Mr Obama was a disappointment. 

That was just for starters:

    It sounded as though he had a blocked nose and so his lack of energy may have been a symptom of a cold. Jet lag, too. He probably wished he could have stayed in bed. [...]

    He spoke slowly, in a meandering manner. Some might say that he was thoughtful and professorial. Others might call his manner circuitous, even yarny.

    Am I saying that he was a bore? Oh dear. I find that I possibly am.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some British journalists here? You know, folks that only treat ROYALTY as royalty?

I'm just saying."

[bobcollum]

True statements and I am not putting blame on him at all what I am highlighting is that he is same as the old guy.

Common lament, and more than likely true, but I will personally be making my judgement on that a little further down the road, as I said, he does seem sincere in his ambitions. I'll have my decision in a year or two, maybe later. Hell, I gave W a couple of years even though I had absolutely no hope for him.

We have been going down the shitter for some time but just because Obama states "I think it is the best course of action" all the kool aid drinkers still lap it up.

What do you expect? They drink kool-aid....there are some on all sides.

One term president no matter what happens so I do not expect much out of him or from him as he has all ready spent more money than all the other Presidents  combined and it is not even his 100 days yet.

Again with the last guy, I thought W would be a one-timer, but alot of things can happen over four years. As to the last part, I'm sure the literal appropriation of funds has been the highest, but it is a different story when it comes to the overall national debt...to this point at least, though he is on pace to possibly double it, which was almost done, on a smaller scale, by that other guy.

"If you're sick of all the gushing and fawning supposedly impartial American journalists are disgracefully including in reports about the President and First Lady's trip to the G20 summit

I never watch it long enough to get sick of it, but the major media outlets in this country have become a running joke. I don't think it has anything to do with orders from the administration to portray him in a certain way, they merely run with marketing data. That is really a whole different topic.

I think he should be judged by the results of his policies, and there haven't been any, and won't be for a while. Besides, if the worst does happen, we can just have the other side, that will campaign on a platform of change, come in and be the same old, again. It is a vicious cycle.

[EvB]

Wouldn't it be nice to have some British journalists here? You know, folks that only treat ROYALTY as royalty?

Someone (it my have been Alan Chartock) pointed out that one of the main reasons we DON'T take our president to task they way they do their MPs is that they have a head of state in their royalty, so the MP doesn't carry any of that gloss.

I'd never really thought about it before - but it makes sense.

[Frys Girl]

It's all about instant gratification. Has anyone seen the movie zeitgeist?

[bobcollum]

Has anyone seen the movie zeitgeist?

I think so. Something about a resource based economy?

[Frys Girl]

I think so. Something about a resource based economy?

I saw it after a student told me about it. I did not see the entire thing. It is WAY too long. However, the part about "we won't have to work" seemed nice. lol.

[Centurion73]

www.nytimes.com/2009/04/09/us/politics/09immig.html?_r=3&hp

Obama's comprehensive immigration legislation, includes a plan to make legal status possible for an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants, would be a priority in his first year in office
Published on 04-09-2009

12 million changes, nice.

[Frys Girl]

www.nytimes.com/2009/04/09/us/politics/09immig.html?_r=3&hp

Obama's comprehensive immigration legislation, includes a plan to make legal status possible for an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants, would be a priority in his first year in office
Published on 04-09-2009

12 million changes, nice.

I don't know what the big deal is. Let me say why before you might freak out. Personally, I saw the good in Ron Paul. But I'm willing to see this through too. here's why. Right now, these illegals are off the grid. They are completely unaccounted for. That is much more scary than having them finger printed, tagged, and given a reason to contribute. I don't know what else to say. This word "illegal" has been so hyped that it's hard to talk about it rationally.

What I want to know is - what about after? What about after they are being taxed and accounted for? Will Obama stop the other 12 million who want in?

[Centurion73]

I don't know what the big deal is. Let me say why before you might freak out. Personally, I saw the good in Ron Paul. But I'm willing to see this through too. here's why. Right now, these illegals are off the grid. They are completely unaccounted for. That is much more scary than having them finger printed, tagged, and given a reason to contribute. I don't know what else to say. This word "illegal" has been so hyped that it's hard to talk about it rationally.

What I want to know is - what about after? What about after they are being taxed and accounted for? Will Obama stop the other 12 million who want in?

They are not off the grid as you do think if they were "off the grid" we would not be paying their way as we do now. Fact: They broke the law by entering illegally, did your grandparents enter legally? Why should your family have done it the right, ethical, and legal way? 2nd, we pay for them now even though they are illegal they still get services that most unemployed natural citizens cannot get simply because their unemployment ran out.

[Frys Girl]

They are not off the grid as you do think if they were "off the grid" we would not be paying their way as we do now. Fact: They broke the law by entering illegally, did your grandparents enter legally? Why should your family have done it the right, ethical, and legal way? 2nd, we pay for them now even though they are illegal they still get services that most unemployed natural citizens cannot get simply because their unemployment ran out.

Here's what I'm asking: What is the alternative to accounting for them? I think it is awful and shitty. However, I don't see an alternative. Obviously, neither do any politicians.

[bobcollum]

I saw it after a student told me about it. I did not see the entire thing. It is WAY too long. However, the part about "we won't have to work" seemed nice. lol.

I think I saw about an hour or to an hour and a half. Its on google video if I remember correctly, and I also felt good about the idea of no work. 

[Centurion73]

Here's what I'm asking: What is the alternative to accounting for them? I think it is awful and shitty. However, I don't see an alternative. Obviously, neither do any politicians.

Alternative, send them back to their country of origin it is still cheaper than housing them here. Do you know how Mexico treats illegals if not I would say read up on it but it is not pretty. What is the alternative to breaking any law and committing a crime, appeasement? I welcome all who do it the legal way as many millions have done so, I have an Indian friend who did it the legal way and it took him over 5 years and much money and suffering and he is grateful everyday he is here. He does not nor ever did look for a hand out this poor guy worked 12-16 hrs 7 days a week for over 5 years straight to do it the right way. Why should we hand over blanket immunity to those who commit crimes and have committed crimes just because they showed up here.

[PhantasticSanShiSan]

Why should we hand over blanket immunity to those who commit crimes and have committed crimes just because they showed up here.

It's about appeasing the *insert variable ethnic, religious, etc. (ex.- Sweedish Buddhist Chuds) group here* voting base.

[Frys Girl]

Alternative, send them back to their country of origin it is still cheaper than housing them here. Do you know how Mexico treats illegals if not I would say read up on it but it is not pretty. What is the alternative to breaking any law and committing a crime, appeasement? I welcome all who do it the legal way as many millions have done so, I have an Indian friend who did it the legal way and it took him over 5 years and much money and suffering and he is grateful everyday he is here. He does not nor ever did look for a hand out this poor guy worked 12-16 hrs 7 days a week for over 5 years straight to do it the right way. Why should we hand over blanket immunity to those who commit crimes and have committed crimes just because they showed up here.

It's a disaster. I don't want to give them immunity. But I feel like they are here, they are in the system and we aren't about to start some rounding up system. We just don't. It ain't born in east LA anymore. Big companies depend on these laborers - look at Wal Mart for example. When they were "raided", they didn't change their hiring practices one bit for janitorial services. The only way to get pay back is to go do the jobs in their countries, if there ARE any.
Why can't we annex Mexico?

[Centurion73]

Frys Girl I don't want to give them immunity.

I don't know what the big deal is.

What is your point then?

I feel like they are here, they are in the system

Right now, these illegals are off the grid. They are completely unaccounted for.

Juxtaposition?

The only way to get pay back is to go do the jobs in their countries, if there ARE any.

I care about OUR people, OUR legal citizens, our unions I do not care what they do in THEIR countries of origin. I know they devalue our financial system and wreak havoc  on social programs designed for legal citizens. That is not to say that their are some fine people of this type and that they make the U.S. better but that number is limited.

Why can't we annex Mexico?

Because Mexico has annexed us.

[Centurion73]

It's about appeasing...

I stated that on page one Phan and you are right on it is about the voting base. Please a note to everyone this is a discussion and not an I hate Obama rant or site. Feel free to say so if that is how you feel but please try and back it up with some facts other than just not liking the man, thank you to all who have responded or will.

[danDNA]

yes mexico has annexed you. to be fair to Mexico, a lot of the south-west states used to be Mexican(or whatever term u wanna apply), so they are just migrating within their own historic territory really, i mean most of those states have never been 'hispanic, or mexican free'.

i went on the cinco de mayo march in LA last year and i was disgusted when i spoke to them and saw how rich Californians treat poor Mexicans and the police raids and families being torn apart and they still waved the american flag, because most dont want trouble, they wanna be CAPITALISTS!! the poor, disillusioned fuckers (although a lot of them wore red, so maybe they are a communist plot.....).

the only problem are the ones looking to exploit people such as the drugs cartels, and lets face it, drug cartels are a problem everywhere. here we have turkish heroin, jamaican crack, asian heroin, good old fashioned english E's, and a shit load of weed gangs. people here are being shot over weed, which used to be a hippies drug!! the times they are a changing.

[Frys Girl]

I think I saw about an hour or to an hour and a half. Its on google video if I remember correctly, and I also felt good about the idea of no work. 

Dude there are 3 videos!! 3 separate 2 hour vids! That's a lot of conspiracy. Maybe he's riiight? Oh and the activisim bullet point one is : Don't join military. Numero Dos: Drop your accounts at Citigroup, BOA, JP Morgan. Hmmmm. Let's see. People are very poor. Most don't even have accounts anymore. And military ? Are you kidding? The recruiting numbers alone are crap.

[Frys Girl]

yes mexico has annexed you. to be fair to Mexico, a lot of the south-west states used to be Mexican(or whatever term u wanna apply), so they are just migrating within their own historic territory really, i mean most of those states have never been 'hispanic, or mexican free'.

i went on the cinco de mayo march in LA last year and i was disgusted when i spoke to them and saw how rich Californians treat poor Mexicans and the police raids and families being torn apart and they still waved the american flag, because most dont want trouble, they wanna be CAPITALISTS!! the poor, disillusioned fuckers (although a lot of them wore red, so maybe they are a communist plot.....).

the only problem are the ones looking to exploit people such as the drugs cartels, and lets face it, drug cartels are a problem everywhere. here we have turkish heroin, jamaican crack, asian heroin, good old fashioned english E's, and a shit load of weed gangs. people here are being shot over weed, which used to be a hippies drug!! the times they are a changing.

OK you are right too. These people aren't exactly empire hunting. But they are violent and dangerous for American security.

Centurion I know you tried to make it sound as if I am contradicting myself, but I'm not. I don't want to give them immunity considering THERE WON'T BE MEXICAN STYLE RAIDS AND DEPORTATIONS. It doesn't happen anymore. Actually, if you are anything BUT latin American and over stay a visa, your chances of trouble are higher. I've heard about illegals in the airport trying to give birth just so their kid could be American and therefore a visa in and of itself. The immigrant I read about was from Senegal. Again, from a land of previous empire re-seeking the empire. So maybe it's not so bad. But when it comes to the services and free stuffs we offer people, yes, it is bad because little people like me who can barely afford health care get pissed.

So again, I ain't contradicting. I am just saying that without the raids and Mexican style enforcement you're citing these people are avoiding because of American goodwill or naivite (you decide which), we are stuck with these people who are either after capitalism as DAN smartly pointed out, OR wanting basic care and services. I'm not a religious person, but I do know that most of them want to work too.

Also, who will deport them? The cops? The military? There are milions! We don't have the resources or $$ it seems.

[bobcollum]

Would it be fair to say that if there were zero employment opportunities for illegal immigrants, that there would be less of an incentive for them to make the journey? Very few people mention the fact that many large companies utilize cheap labor coming in to the country, the same way they utilized it going out of the country in the past 20 years, which has also had a detrimental effect on job availability as a whole....it is 'insourcing'. I believe this is where the major problem lies, seeing as how most comments against it involve a loss of jobs.

[Centurion73]

You said they were "off the grid" then they were in the system? I just wanted to know your point it cannot be both.

I am just saying that without the raids and Mexican style enforcement you're citing these people are avoiding because of American goodwill or naivite (you decide which),

It is neither the mass majority of Americans do not want them here it is the politicians as Phan pointed out that do nothing. Their are laws to deport and when Sheriff Joe did just that the Feds came after him and he said he will enforce the laws as he should and he has saved 16 million dollars by doing so.

Also, who will deport them? The cops? The military? There are milions! We don't have the resources or $$ it seems.

President Barack Obama wants Congress to act quickly on his $83.4 billion request for US military and diplomatic operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, I think even by my demented math that we could repatriate, deport, ILLEGAL aliens with $83.4 billion or may be even some of the billions given to AIG executives.

[Centurion73]

Would it be fair to say that if there were zero employment opportunities for illegal immigrants, that there would be less of an incentive for them to make the journey? Very few people mention the fact that many large companies utilize cheap labor coming in to the country, the same way they utilized it going out of the country in the past 20 years, which has also had a detrimental effect on job availability as a whole....it is 'insourcing'. I believe this is where the major problem lies, seeing as how most comments against it involve a loss of jobs.

Ypu're right it is so disgusting how people treat these illegals that actually try and work and not be gang bangers. I am a officer and I know of a certain restaurant that locks 5 illegals in from 11PM - 7AM pays them slave wages, no bennies, no time off, they do all the prep work and this is an upper class establishment and what can I do? I turn them in and these poor fuckers have no food money or anything, the owner will get a slap on the wrist if anything, ICE does nothing and then I get a worse case of my administration fucking with me for it. They are good people are they illegals yes, should they be deported, yes. Fire codes do not matter they are illegals, they cant go to the labor board they are illegals, better to deport them all and then maybe American restaurant workers can then unite for a living wage, sorry for my rant.

[bobcollum]

I turn them in and these poor fuckers have no food money or anything, the owner will get a slap on the wrist if anything, ICE does nothing and then I get a worse case of my administration fucking with me for it. They are good people are they illegals yes, should they be deported, yes. Fire codes do not matter they are illegals, they cant go to the labor board they are illegals, better to deport them all and then maybe American restaurant workers can then unite for a living wage, sorry for my rant.

I just think its impossible to deport them all, like how its impossible to wipe out drug use, or the many other tendencies that every human being has(in their case just a better life, i guess). Common sense dictates that if you take away what they want, they will look to something else. I know one man who has basically lost the majority of his masonry company because of illegal immigrants from Brazil, I worked in an office that had illegals(also from Brazil) work as the night janitorial crew, though they were very pleasant people. They said that they basically send most of their money home to the families and they live very well because of it. I have another friend who is a plasterer, and he works with several illegal immigrants from all over(Azores, Cuba, Portugal), and they don't pay taxes....kinda. I heard the owner actually takes money from their pay and tells them it goes to taxes, but it is impossible, because these people have absolutely no documentation.

Here is an article from 2007 involving an ICE raid where I live. It got real messy....kids(technically US born) separated from one or both of their parents for several or more days and other things that make me kinda feel bad for them. The company was extremely scheisty, they also got caught setting up a fake company, and having workers punch in on it's time after 8 hours to avoid having to pay overtime. Oi vey...

[Frys Girl]

caught setting up a fake company, and having workers punch in on it's time after 8 hours to avoid having to pay overtime. Oi vey...

Hello Mr. Burns!! Wow that's genius.